00:38Hi everyone, I'm Dr. 00:39Michele Burklund and welcome to 00:41the podcast Medicine Untold. 00:43Today we have Dr. 00:45Nasha Winters and I'll read a little bit about 00:49your bio right now before we get started. So, Dr. 00:53Winters is a global healthcare authority and best 00:56selling author in integrative cancer care and research 01:00consulting with physicians around the world. 01:02She has educated hundreds of professionals in the 01:06clinical use of mistletoe and has created robust 01:09educational programs for both healthcare institutions and the 01:13public on incorporating vetted integrative therapies in cancer 01:17care to enhance outcomes. Dr. 01:19Winters is currently focused on opening a comprehensive 01:23metabolic oncology hospital and research institute in the 01:26US where the best that standard of care 01:30has to offer and the most advanced integrative 01:32therapies will be offered. 01:34This facility will be a residential setting on a 01:37gorgeous campus against the backdrop of regenerative farming, EMF 01:41mitagation and a retreat, as well as a state 01:44of the art medical technology and data collection and 01:47evaluation to improve patient outcomes. 01:51Wow, that's amazing. 01:54It's a mouthful. You did. 01:56Thank you. 01:59Yeah. 02:00It sounds like an amazing vision and an 02:02amazing goal that you have right now. 02:05I'm excited to hear more about that too. Thank you. 02:10I'll get started, kind of with our first 02:12question, and that is, when you were just 02:1519 years old, you were diagnosed with stage 02:18four ovarian cancer and given months to live. 02:22So how did you feel about this? 02:24And really, what did you do differently than 02:26the doctors told you to survive this? 02:30Well, I think it's important for your listeners 02:33to know that I had a lot of 02:35health issues for many, many moons. 02:37And this sort of got, I guess, 02:39sort of lost in the shuffle. 02:42Oh, that's just more of your IBS, 02:44Oh, that's just more of your RA, 02:45Oh, that's just more of your endometriosis, your PCOS. 02:47So by the time I landed in the hospital, 02:50two weeks before my 20th birthday, near, in and 02:54out of consciousness, pulse oxygen levels extremely low, revealing 03:00that I had a complete bowel blockage, end stage 03:02organ failure, grapefruit sized tumor on my right ovary, 03:05belly filled with malignant fluid, so cancerous fluid in 03:09wrong places within my body. 03:12I know I'm missing other details of that. 03:14Excruciating pain, inability to eat, nothing coming out 03:17of either end or into either end. 03:20For weeks leading up to that hospitalization, 03:23it was that moment where there wasn't 03:25anything they could offer me. 03:27It was the end of the line. 03:29And so it was a pretty... 03:31When you talk about what did you think at the 03:33moment, I will tell your listeners that in the years 03:37leading up to that, I had actually tried to extinguish 03:39my own life on a couple of occasions. 03:41There wasn't a lot of hope on the horizon 03:43of how my life could be any different. 03:45I came from extreme trauma. 03:47If your listeners are familiar with this concept of childhood 03:50traumas and their impact on your health and well being 03:53and the way your immune system functions and your ability 03:56to ward off disease functions, you might have heard of 03:59a concept known as the ACE score. 04:01See the adverse childhood event score. 04:04Basically, if you have six or more, you are destined. 04:08Remember that these are destinies that 04:10we can rewrite our story. 04:11But from the literature, if you do nothing to 04:13rewrite your story, you will have cancer or some 04:16severe chronic illness at a very young age. 04:18So I think that was a major contributor to mine. 04:22I had a ten out of ten on that ace score. 04:25I had come from extreme poverty. 04:27I'd come from extreme malnourishment, really 04:30poor dietary lifestyle habits of just 04:32coming from that level of poverty. 04:34And no one in my family 04:36ever gone to college, nothing else. 04:37So I had a lot of things stacked against me. 04:40And so when you're in that place, as I appreciate 04:42so many people are on this planet today, I didn't 04:45see that there was a better life ahead of me. 04:48I didn't anticipate a better life ahead. 04:50So, for me, actually, cancer, there was a moment, the 04:53first moment when I was given that diagnosis that there 04:56was relief because there was sort of a way to 04:58exit strategy with a little bit of, I don't know, 05:01maybe martyrdom, maybe a little bit of, oh, that's a 05:04really good story to go out on. 05:06Oh, she died of cancer. That was like. 05:09There was a fleeting fantasy. 05:11But then this other thing happened in me, which 05:13I also recognize about myself, which I have. 05:16I actually have the OCD gene, which can be my 05:19superhero, it can be my kryptonite or my superpower. 05:22But it was that moment when 05:24someone says, it can't be done. 05:26It's like a double dog dare for me, and 05:28it's sort of like, well, then I'm going to 05:30do everything I can to prove you otherwise. 05:32So that was kind of my survival 05:35technique for all those years, too. 05:36And here we are, over 32 years later. 05:38I'm still learning about myself. 05:39I'm still applying new things to myself. 05:41I'm still learning from the tens of thousands of patients 05:43I've had direct access to support and the hundreds of 05:46thousands of patients I've had indirect ability to support and 05:50learn from and continue to basically kick this can down 05:54the road as I learn more, apply more, do more, 05:56learn more, apply more, do more. 05:58That has been my decades since mantra ever since. Wow. 06:04Yeah, I mean, it's a journey on really all levels, too. 06:08And to have that self awareness going into it, too. 06:12And knowing how your emotions played a role 06:15into this and making that choice, too. 06:17Making the choice to fight it, knowing that 06:20it was tempting for a second to go 06:22the other way and seeing all those things. 06:25I personally think that emotions play a huge 06:28role in illness and recovery is a very 06:32holistic thing that needs to be addressed. 06:34So, wow. 06:35Thank you for sharing your story. 06:37And clearly it's dictated a little bit of your path 06:40forward, too, whether you wanted it to or not, I 06:44guess, but that passion and that drive and your purpose. 06:47So how did that experience really change your life 06:51course and put you in this direction and give 06:55you the motivation to create what you have? Perfect. 06:58Well, I think there was this tendency in my 07:01own survival of being kind of the overachiever because 07:03no one on the outside world would ever know 07:05what was happening on the inside world of me. 07:06Leading up to my diagnosis, and even for the first 07:09few years beyond, I was highly accomplished in many ways. 07:12I was able to really put on a mask 07:13and present myself to the world that there was 07:16nothing wrong behind the Wizard of Oz curtain. Right. 07:19And so that was one of the things that it 07:22actually put me into hyper mode even more because I 07:25was premed, I was going to go to med. 07:27I knew what I wanted to do. 07:28So I had this very scientific, research centric brain. 07:32But I also felt very jaded and abandoned 07:38and even ridiculed by the community I so 07:41desperately wanted to be part of. 07:44And so that theme of wanting to belong was 07:49old in me and continues to this day. 07:51I mean, I'm definitely an outlier across the board, 07:53and I definitely don't fit in particular camps. 07:55I'm ridiculed in everything from the standard of care 07:58world to the naturopathic world and everything in between 08:00and beyond, because I don't fit into a box. 08:03I don't fit into something defined. 08:06So I had to define my own way, I had to define 08:08my own process, and I had to trust myself first before I 08:13allowed other people's sort of impressions of me or what can or 08:18can't be done be something I took note of. 08:22So that took me on a direction of realizing 08:24that, hey, I'm looking at stepping into an environment, 08:27a conventional medical school that absolutely no longer fits. 08:31It's what I thought I wanted, and it no longer did. 08:34So it took me on this trajectory. 08:35Suddenly I started to scramble about what? What else? 08:37Else, what else? 08:38Maybe I'll be a psychologist. 08:39Maybe I'll get into addictions counseling and 08:42trauma counseling, because that was very interesting 08:44to me because I had some understanding 08:46that was part of my illness. 08:48I also thought, well, maybe I'll just get 08:50into midwifery, because instead of facing death, maybe 08:53I can bring life into this world. 08:55That was something very interesting to me. 08:57And the other piece was there was some 09:00realization that there wasn't because there were no 09:02pharmaceutical or surgical or radiation offerings to me. 09:06There was nothing that standard care could offer. 09:09I had to get outside of that sandbox 09:11to look at things to help me along 09:12the way, which then led me to finding 09:14out about this crazy thing called naturopathic medicine. 09:18And so that was intriguing of that piece. 09:21But also in my undergrad, I was only a 09:23sophomore in college when I was diagnosed, so I 09:25still had a few more years out to get 09:27all my prereqs and all those things done. 09:30But I created a self constructed 09:32major, basically a psychoneuroimmunology major. 09:35So a biology psychology major instead of a 09:38biology chemistry major, where I brought in much 09:41more of the lion's share of the mind 09:42body component in my education and my understanding. 09:45So that was definitely a major shift from just 09:49the hardcore didactic, tangible sciences into something that expanded 09:54my worldview in a very different way. 09:57Yeah, I mean, it seems like you were forced to 10:01in so many ways if conventional medicine didn't have any 10:04answers for you and you had to seek everything yourself. 10:08I mean, it's great you had that research background a little 10:12bit at that time, and you were down that road. 10:15But I mean, still, that can be very scary to go 10:18through and to totally fend for yourself at that time. 10:23But I think that's a lot of the time. 10:25Where the answers come is through 10:27the hardship and through that journey. 10:30And so it's pretty powerful. 10:33You can relate to so many people and have 10:36that aspect of being the patient and the physician 10:40and now training physicians, too, along the way. 10:44Yeah, thank you for that. Yes. 10:49So I also know that you published a book 10:51called the Metabolic Approach, and I have seen this 10:54book almost everywhere since I started to take notice 10:58of it this year at different doctors offices, like 11:02in California and Washington here and there. 11:04And so it's been on my radar quite a bit. 11:07But for the people watching, can you tell 11:10us first, what does the metabolic approach mean 11:14in your book, if we're interested in it. 11:16We don't know anything about it, and 11:18we're new to the cancer world. Perfect. 11:21Well, a little context. 11:22So the way we understand cancer today in standard of 11:26care oncology, is that as a somatic mutation process, which 11:31is, in simple terms, a genetic disease, right. 11:35We are still pouring all of our resources 11:38into research, into resources into treatment, into resources 11:43into building new hospitals, et cetera, based around 11:47this particular idea that cancer is a genetic 11:51disease or only a genetic disease. 11:53And we've had this idea since 11:55Dr. Theodor Boveri's time in 1914, and it's picked up 11:59momentum, picked up even more momentum in the 1950s 12:03when Watson and Crick found the DNA helix, the 12:07helix that everyone's like, there's the answer. 12:10And then what? 12:10In the 80s, when we decided, well, if we can just 12:12map the genome, then we'll have all the answers there. 12:15And it's almost like every time we think this is going 12:18to be the answer, we end up with more questions, right? 12:20So that's one piece, and yet it's still 12:24the model and the philosophy and the paradigm 12:28that is leading the charge in how we 12:30think about study and approach cancer today. 12:34So keeping in mind that this is where 12:37we've been functioning from for over 100 years. 12:40Similarly, at that time, just a couple of years 12:42later, another researcher and clinician came forth saying, actually, 12:46no, cancer is not a genetic disease. 12:49Genetics might be a downstream effect, but the 12:53upstream effect is that it actually starts at 12:55the level of these little tiny organelles within 12:58our cells called the mitochondria. 13:00And your listeners might remember back to maybe 13:02their 6th grade biology classes about the mighty 13:05mitochondria and the fact that these little buggers 13:07are our little powerhouses of our cells that 13:11make energy, that make ATP. 13:13So that was where this. Dr. 13:16Otto Warburg, if your listeners want to really 13:18dive down a deep rabbit hole, go and 13:20read the book Ravenous by Sam Apple. 13:23Fascinating about this time and this research of that time in 13:26the 1920s, of which he won a Nobel Prize for this 13:28work in 1931 or 32, I always forget, but somewhere in 13:32the early 30s, he won a Nobel Prize for this finding. 13:35But what he noted is that, simply put, 13:39cancer cells, all of our cells of our 13:42body, except for red blood cells, have mitochondria. 13:45And what he noticed are cancer cells. 13:48The mitochondria within those cancer cells look very 13:51different than the mitochondria in our healthy cells. 13:53And push, come to shove, over the last 13:55hundred or so years, we've started to learn 13:58that the different shape, the different behavior, the 14:00different personality of that mitochondria, even the different 14:03number and activity of those mitochondria are what 14:06are creating of disease or preventing of disease. 14:10And so we started to realize that the 14:13way our mitochondria is expressed, how many we 14:16have, how well they're working or not working, 14:19is basically our fountain of youth. 14:22And so that is where we start to get 14:24a bigger vision than this myopic genetic approach. 14:29And so when we talk about this in 14:31the books, you have a little context. 14:32Now, this idea really was, it won all the awards. 14:36It was where everyone was putting 14:37their attention until Watson and Crick. 14:39And then it was sort of like that 14:40got buried until years later, when people started 14:43dusting off some of this information and asking 14:47different questions about it, one of which I 14:49stumbled across her research in the 1980s, 14:51Dr. Mina Bissell, who's actually presented at some of big Society 14:56of Integrative oncology conferences over the years, she started to 14:59understand that in her research in a lab, that the 15:03cancer cells were more responsive to the medium in which 15:07they were growing in that petri dish than in the 15:11cell itself, which started people to question whether cancer was 15:17really at that cellular genetic level, and that maybe we 15:20should broaden our thought process to basically look at the 15:22swimming pool in which those cells are swimming, might be 15:26of more interest. 15:26And so her work in the 15:28extracellular matrix became really paramount. 15:31And then in the mid 2010 era, people like Dr. Thomas Seyfried 15:36dusted off further and said, let's 15:39look at cancer as a metabolic derangement at 15:42that mitochondrial level where our body is using 15:46and choosing different resources to fuel the cancer 15:49versus to fuel the healthy cells. 15:51And so that is what led to this book. 15:54That even though I've been living it and practicing it 15:56in myself and patients for over 30 years, I suddenly 16:00had people that had created language for me to start 16:02to communicate and convey what it was that I was 16:05seeing and doing in the clinic. 16:07And what I started to understand after decades of my 16:09own clinical practice and my own applying it to myself. 16:12First approach was that everything we think about, 16:16put on in or around us, and even 16:19down to the people we surround ourselves by 16:22impact, the health of our mitochondria. 16:25So think about the mitochondria. 16:27We used to think it was just about power creation, 16:29but we've learned since that it's very much about a 16:32receiver of information from the environment around it, whether that's 16:36intracellularly from the tissues, from the blood flow from the 16:41organs, from the whole container of the body itself, from 16:44outside of the container of the body itself from things 16:46we're being exposed to day to day. 16:48Whatever inputs coming in, that mitochondria's job is to 16:52see it, recognize it, ingest it, translate it, and 16:56then put signals out into the body to tell 16:58the body what to do with that input. 17:01So what happens over time is that input 17:03gets congested, congealed, and mismanaged and miscommunicated, which 17:07leads to all types of weird signaling processes 17:09which can flip into a cancering process. 17:12So it's basically accumulations of life. 17:15And even to this day, standard of care 17:18has stated that cancer itself, less than 5% 17:21of all cancer, actually have genetic origin. 17:23And yet we are still treating 17:25cancer as a genetic disease. 17:27And they are completely in agreement to say that 17:2990% to 95% of our diet and our lifestyle 17:32and the world around us is actually what is 17:35impacting our cancering process or not. 17:37And yet we don't put our 17:39resources of research in there. 17:41So the book, the metabolic approach to cancer, is 17:43trying to bridge that, help people understand the why 17:47of cancer, which is to evaluate, I guess, for 17:50me, it could be for someone, maybe seven buckets. 17:53For others, it might be twelve buckets. 17:54But for me, I kind of landed on ten major 17:56buckets that seem to contribute to a mitochondria's health or 18:01disease, which then is the sort of precursor to whether 18:05this becomes cancer or other chronic illness. 18:08And so, simply put, I go into these terrain ten. 18:11Okay, so one of them is epigenetics, meaning 18:15what did you inherit from those before you? 18:17What is the blueprint that you were born with? 18:19Now, the cool thing about this blueprint is 18:21that it's not necessarily set in stone. 18:23It might be what your tendencies are, what your 18:26predispositions are, but it's how you play those tendencies, 18:30how you feed those tendencies, how you fortify yourself 18:34against those tendencies that help keep that genetic expression 18:39symbiotic in the rest of the body. 18:41All right, so that's one drop in the bucket. 18:43The other one is, what are you fueling yourself with? 18:45That's our metabolic health. 18:47So, we had, in the last 150 years, eat more 18:50sugar than ever from a variety of resources, going from 18:53about five pounds of sugar per person in the early 18:5618 hundreds to over 175 pounds per person today. 19:00Big difference. 19:00Our body couldn't adapt quick enough to that change. 19:04Right? 19:04So, wow is right. 19:06And so we now learn that sugar is 19:08the driver of a lot of metabolic diseases. 19:10Not that it's caused, but 19:11it certainly makes things worse. 19:13More inflammation, more immune suppression, 19:16more poor oxygenation, more immune 19:20dysfunction, more metabolic microbiome dysfunction. 19:24It just adds a lot of gunk to the workings internally. 19:29Then we look at environmental. 19:30At this point, we live on the planet. 19:32If you live here on this planet, you have toxicity. 19:34It's just how does it interplay with your particular blueprint 19:38and how much are you taking in and how much 19:40is your body able to take care of? 19:42And then we look at the microbiome, which is 19:44just now picking up momentum in the sciences. 19:46Despite the fact that, like ayurvedic doctors, chinese doctors, 19:50naturpaths, we've known for millennia that the gut 19:54is where it's at, where it starts. 19:55We just didn't quite have the languaging to 19:57understand that or convey that or research that. 19:59And then it gets down to our immune 20:01system, inflammation, circulation, and oxygenation of the body. 20:06Hormone like balance, not just excess 20:09or deficient, but balance of our 20:12hormones, circadian rhythm and stress response. 20:15And the mental emotional piece which we've already alluded to 20:18in the beginning of my story in all of this. 20:20And so what the metabolic approach to cancer book 20:23tries to do is help the reader get curious 20:28about what might be the big drops in their 20:30own bucket affecting their mitochondrial expression. 20:33And so even the beginning of the book has a 20:35very rudimentary quiz to see maybe what your priorities are. 20:40And then you can go in and focus on that and 20:42see, okay, maybe I'm getting too much sugar in my life. 20:44What can I do about it? 20:45Maybe I am getting too many toxins. 20:47What can I do about it? 20:48Maybe my hormones do need more modulation. 20:50What can I do about it? 20:51So it's a roadmap to help people understand where 20:54they came from, where they are in this moment, 20:56and how to get to their next desired destination. 21:00Right. 21:01And, I mean, I'm amazed at how 21:03comprehensive it is in that book, too. 21:06I was going through it the other day, and you have 21:08a lot of great questions at the beginning, I think, for 21:11people who might not think they were even exposed to toxins 21:15or certain things or grew up in a certain environment and 21:17might have never thought anything about it. 21:20And then they're reading this, and they're like, okay, I 21:22can see where it ties in, or I can. Interesting. 21:26This is an interesting question, and I 21:27can dig in it a little more. 21:29So I was very impressed with that and how you 21:31can kind of take people on a journey as well. Thank you. 21:35We've even, since then, thanks to technology, we've 21:39actually expanded on that questionnaire that's completely free 21:42to take deep dive like hundreds of questions 21:45instead of a few that really take it 21:47down, it's got a weighted score. 21:49So at the end of the questionnaire, you 21:51really know what your highest percentage is. 21:52And maybe you look at your top two or three, and 21:55that might be where you want to put your focus and 21:56work with someone who understands terrain, understands the body ecology, and 22:02how to best support it along the way. 22:04But it's still, I can't even tell 22:06you how many people at this point. 22:08The book has sold over 100,000 copies. 22:10It's in six languages, seven languages, two more coming 22:13out this year with more on the horizon. 22:15It's just accidentally seeping out there. 22:17But people tell me all the time, it's 22:20like, as you said, they didn't know what 22:21they didn't know until they knew. 22:23And I think that's what's catching us off guard today, 22:26is now that cancer statistics globally are expecting one in 22:29two of us to experience this in our lifetime. 22:32We need to be a bit more proactive to understand why. 22:36Because I can't even tell you, Dr. 22:37Michele, how many patients have said to me, 22:39but I was healthy until I got cancer. 22:42And what I have to explain to them is 22:43that was absolutely impossible, that it's not possible to 22:47be both healthy and cancer at the same time. 22:50You can be healthy with cancer 22:52where it's keeping the cancer dormant. Right. 22:56But you can't be healthy and have the cancering process, 22:59like a galloping goose going off the tracks there. 23:02That is not possible. 23:03So we always want to dig deeper, get curious as to 23:07what might make you vulnerable to your mitochondria being damaged enough 23:12to move into a realm of a cancer process. 23:16Right. 23:17And I think all of that information is so incredibly 23:20helpful, too, just to let people know and to guide 23:24them along the way of have them thinking that way. 23:27And a question for you is, so I know that 23:31you've been training physicians in this approach for a while. 23:35How would somebody who's in this, because you're not 23:38seeing patients anymore, but you're in the training phase 23:41to get that information out on a larger level 23:43now, which is amazing, which is super awesome. 23:46How would they find that? 23:47If somebody's looking for a practitioner, they 23:49want to know more about this and 23:51have somebody guide them along the way? 23:54Where would they find that information? Great question. 23:56I appreciate the opportunity to talk about something that's really 23:59fun for me, which is I really love Docere, Teacher. 24:05Doctor means Docere, which means teacher. Right. 24:07So I think we just come by 24:08this naturally by being just a doctor. 24:10But it's neat when you can actually get out 24:12there and help other doctors do reach more. 24:15So instead of me just being a one to one, 24:17one doctor to one patient, it's now me to. 24:20Currently we're at 200 clinicians, although we're 24:23expanding that next week to 40 more 24:25at jumping into our cohort of training. 24:27We're going into our 9th cohort now that's one to 240. 24:31And the reach that they each have, suddenly 24:34it's exponential, which is massive and necessary. 24:37So the metabolic Terrain Institute of Health is our 501 24:42nonprofit entity in which we house all of our education 24:46platforms, our patient grants, so patients that are seeking help 24:51in financing some of their integrative oncology treatments for clinicians 24:55in parts of the world, or even new graduates who 24:57don't have the financial resources but really want to be 25:00trained in this, we've even got grants for clinicians to 25:03take this course. 25:03We even have global pricing. 25:06So, for instance, I had a call this morning with a 25:08doctor, an oncologist in Romania, who very much wants to take 25:11this course, but the price, they can't pay it at the 25:14US dollar value because it's just not possible. 25:17So there's a particular formula you use 25:19for countries around the world that makes 25:21it applicable to their own financial system. 25:25So we want this accessible by everybody. 25:28But ultimately, at the end of the 25:29day, after this course is complete, clinicians 25:31have an opportunity to pass an exam. 25:33Some just come through for their own knowledge, some 25:36come through to just get this and say, hey, 25:38I completed it, here's my certificate, and move on. 25:41Most, however, say I'm now part of a 25:43mission and a vision much bigger than myself, 25:45and I want to continue down this. 25:46So they decide to be ongoing, they 25:48decide to stay in the network. 25:49They decide to also be 25:50teachers themselves into this community. 25:53And those folks are listed on 25:55our mtih.org website, which stands the 26:00metabolicraininstituteofealth.org website under directory, under practitioners. 26:06Those are our vetted, trusted colleagues around 26:08the globe that focus on this. 26:10We've also got another learning opportunity for people 26:13who, if they can't order labs, if they 26:16can't order imaging, if they can't prescribe, but 26:18they still have good medical background, maybe they're 26:20a nurse, maybe they're a nutritionist, a physical 26:23therapist, maybe they've got a health coaching background 26:27that want to be part of this. 26:28We have what's called our Tap program, which is 26:30our terrain advocate program, which is also a course 26:34which has our vetted graduates on there. 26:36We've got 300 of those folks in 36 countries, 26:40our fifth or 6th cohort, starting in April. 26:42So we've got that. 26:44They are the bridge between the clinician and the 26:47patient, and they're often the first line helping patients 26:50onboard into this, helping the educational process of this, 26:53helping make sure nothing falls into the cracks, helping 26:56people literally go through and audit their lives, not 26:58just their pantries about what they may be exposed 27:01to and what they can do about it. 27:03And so that's an opportunity. 27:04And then later, second quarter of 2024, we'll be 27:07dropping kind of a do it yourself course for 27:09people who just want to maybe expand upon what 27:12they learned in the book, but they're not a 27:13healthcare provider, and they really want this for themselves, 27:16to be more inspired, educated and empowered. 27:20That is, being ready to drop for everyone for 27:23kind of a do it yourself program in a 27:25couple of months, which we're also very excited about. 27:28All of this information about our educational 27:30platforms can be found on mtih.org. That's perfect. 27:35And I'll make sure to put all those 27:36links up when we publish this, too. 27:38So everyone has a place to 27:40go and to find everything as. Thank you. 27:43Huge, huge. 27:44What we've learned is that an empowered 27:46patient is a patient with better outcomes. 27:49And I know you, Dr. 27:50Michele, see that firsthand, that it's like, this 27:54is going to sound kind of crass, but 27:56an empowered patient is hard to kill. 27:58It's just the way. 28:01And I think back to Bernie Siegel, his book 28:03back from the 80s, medicine, what is it? 28:06Mind, Medicine, Miracles. 28:07I may be skewing that a little bit, but 28:09one of the earlier influencers in my own healing 28:11journey, he talked about the power of even like, 28:14support groups and these networks, and that patients that 28:17were involved in any form of supportive community with 28:21their own diagnosis had far better outcomes and overall 28:24survival rates than those who did not. 28:26So we're creating yet another communal approach for this people 28:31like James Maskell, who's a dear colleague out there in 28:35the world, he wrote a beautiful book called the Community 28:37Cure, which is talking about how medicine should go back 28:40to being a community based approach. 28:42So I feel really proud at MTIH, 28:44that's what we keep bringing to the 28:45table, that we're bringing everyone together. 28:47It shouldn't be a hierarchy of doctors over 28:49here, mid levels over here, patients over here. 28:52We all just need to be gathered around 28:53the table together to learn from one another, 28:56to inspire one another, to empower one another. 29:00Yeah, 100%. 29:02I mean, I created this whole podcast mainly to give 29:05patients back, to empower them, and to say, hey, this 29:09is a journey that you're on, and you put together 29:11your own team and you make your own choices. 29:14And I think the outcome dramatically changes once you 29:18take that responsibility instead of giving it to the 29:21team or giving it to a certain area. 29:23So huge fan of that. 29:26Cool. 29:27Well, thank you so much, Dr. 29:29Winters, for coming on today and 29:31sharing all of your amazing information. 29:33And we'll make sure that all of our listeners have 29:37access to everything you talked about today, and they can 29:40find you and find your book as well. 29:43Thank you so much. 29:44And I'm so, so happy that you're 29:46getting these types of conversations out there. So, Dr. 29:49Michele, thank you for what you do. 29:51Thank you very much.